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Tony

#1 24.Nov.17 14:58:51

James Larkin
Member

Dogford Road Junction

Statement below from the council;

“Oldham Council wishes to apologise for any inconvenience caused by the road works at the junction of Dogford Road.

The new pedestrianised traffic signals at the junction of Rochdale Road/ Dogford Road Royton have been put in place as part of the Councils investment in a full safety scheme considered essential following a reports of a fatality and serious accidents in this area.      Any such scheme is subject to review and it became clear that the marked turnings which formed part of the scheme did not work well and therefore were temporarily blacked out pending a further review of traffic movement.

It has been agreed following consultation with local Councillors that the lines should be permanently removed and this is to be arranged immediately.    The pedestrianised traffic signals will remain and appear to be working well.    The junction surfacing will therefore revert to what it was.”

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#2 24.Nov.17 15:03:44

Tony
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Thanks for the update James.


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#3 24.Nov.17 15:14:56

Penguin
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

James Larkin wrote:

It has been agreed following consultation with local Councillors that the lines should be permanently removed and this is to be arranged immediately.    The pedestrianised traffic signals will remain and appear to be working well.    The junction surfacing will therefore revert to what it was.”

How many heads did you need to wobble to get some common sense James?  wink


We're not green, we're just pleasant. (Marillion - Living in F.E.A.R.)

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#4 24.Nov.17 16:49:43

crackerbarrel
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Thanks for the update James. tummenupp


Happiness is a journey, not a destination.

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#5 24.Nov.17 18:27:23

sg
Administrator

Re: Dogford Road Junction

“The junction surfacing will therefore revert to what it was.”

And that’s already been done right?
There still seems to be enough markings left over on the road (burnt arrows) to cause confusion and danger at the moment.

Is the situation now fully resolved according to the council? Is that case closed?


[citation needed]

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#6 24.Nov.17 18:44:21

Tony
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

sg wrote:

“The junction surfacing will therefore revert to what it was.”

And that’s already been done right?
There still seems to be enough markings left over on the road (burnt arrows) to cause confusion and danger at the moment.

Is the situation now fully resolved according to the council? Is that case closed?

James does say in his post that removal of the markings will be arranged immediately, so over the weekend I assume.


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#7 25.Nov.17 09:53:03

James Larkin
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

It should be being done this morning.

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#8 25.Nov.17 13:09:51

nola
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Thanks James.
I was hoping they might be able to solve the problem when waiting to turn right from Dogford Road onto Rochdale Road.   You wait there while traffic comes out of Rochdale Lane, then the lights turn to red, but cars carry on emerging.  By the time you can turn right the Rochdale Road lights are on green and you are left stranded in the middle with them bearing down on you. 
I always flash my lights at the red light jumpers, but it's a drop in the ocean.


Really called Janet (and still confused)

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#9 25.Nov.17 13:48:06

LittleRach
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Just out of interest, and genuinely not trying to start an argument because people make mistakes, these things happen, but I’m just curious about how it all works.

Just about who is paying for it, and who commissions the work etc.

So my guess is that Oldham council decides the junction is unsafe and goes to its own highways people to get it changed.
The come up with the original idea, and then contractors are paid to do it.
Turns out to be not such a good idea, contractors have to be paid to come back and change it.

But who made the original bad decision, and can any money be claimed back from them, or is it just one of those things because at that point it was all internal?


Though we cannot make our sun stand still, yet we will make him run.

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#10 25.Nov.17 14:37:48

Tony
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

LittleRach wrote:

Just out of interest, and genuinely not trying to start an argument because people make mistakes, these things happen, but I’m just curious about how it all works.

Just about who is paying for it, and who commissions the work etc.

So my guess is that Oldham council decides the junction is unsafe and goes to its own highways people to get it changed.
The come up with the original idea, and then contractors are paid to do it.
Turns out to be not such a good idea, contractors have to be paid to come back and change it.

But who made the original bad decision, and can any money be claimed back from them, or is it just one of those things because at that point it was all internal?

To put it simply, LittleRach, certain informal discussions took place involving a full and frank exchange of views out of which there arose a series of proposals, which on examination proved to indicate certain promising alterations to the junction, which, when pursued, lead to the realization that the alternative courses of action might, in fact, in certain circumstances, be susceptible of discreet modification, leading to a reappraisal of the original ideas and pointing the way to encouraging possibilities of compromise and cooperation, which, if bilaterally implemented with appropriate give and take on both sides might, if the climate were right, have a reasonable probability at the end of the day of leading, rightly or wrongly, to a mutually satisfactory resolution to traffic management.
It is characteristic of all council discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t so it wasn’t.
I hope this simplifies in a plain English way what has happened in this case  wink

Last edited by Tony (25.Nov.17 14:39:57)


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#11 25.Nov.17 16:21:38

Woody
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

The basic function Highways will be told after consultation process to draw up a scheme to change the Junction to a Pedestrian operated crossing and re-line kerbs as shown with raised flag dimpled crossing points and dropped kerbs for wheel chairs etc then resurface and mark out has instructed,

A tender enquiry will have been sent out to suitably qualified contractors and an order placed to commence the work at the set dates,
It is highly unlikely that the contractor will have done anything without formal instruction from OMBC Highways Dep't Staff so any cost variations involved will be paid for by the employer OMBC,

The poster above appears to have swallowed a Dictionary, For which there is no known cure, tummenupp

Last edited by Woody (25.Nov.17 16:23:35)


I would if I could but I can't,

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#12 25.Nov.17 18:57:34

LittleRach
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Tony wrote:
LittleRach wrote:

Just out of interest, and genuinely not trying to start an argument because people make mistakes, these things happen, but I’m just curious about how it all works.

Just about who is paying for it, and who commissions the work etc.

So my guess is that Oldham council decides the junction is unsafe and goes to its own highways people to get it changed.
The come up with the original idea, and then contractors are paid to do it.
Turns out to be not such a good idea, contractors have to be paid to come back and change it.

But who made the original bad decision, and can any money be claimed back from them, or is it just one of those things because at that point it was all internal?

To put it simply, LittleRach, certain informal discussions took place involving a full and frank exchange of views out of which there arose a series of proposals, which on examination proved to indicate certain promising alterations to the junction, which, when pursued, lead to the realization that the alternative courses of action might, in fact, in certain circumstances, be susceptible of discreet modification, leading to a reappraisal of the original ideas and pointing the way to encouraging possibilities of compromise and cooperation, which, if bilaterally implemented with appropriate give and take on both sides might, if the climate were right, have a reasonable probability at the end of the day of leading, rightly or wrongly, to a mutually satisfactory resolution to traffic management.
It is characteristic of all council discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t so it wasn’t.
I hope this simplifies in a plain English way what has happened in this case  wink

lol lol lol


Though we cannot make our sun stand still, yet we will make him run.

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#13 25.Nov.17 19:04:45

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Ah, now we all understand, tony. Why didn't you say?  lol


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#14 25.Nov.17 20:18:26

nola
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Tony wrote:
LittleRach wrote:

Just out of interest, and genuinely not trying to start an argument because people make mistakes, these things happen, but I’m just curious about how it all works.

Just about who is paying for it, and who commissions the work etc.

So my guess is that Oldham council decides the junction is unsafe and goes to its own highways people to get it changed.
The come up with the original idea, and then contractors are paid to do it.
Turns out to be not such a good idea, contractors have to be paid to come back and change it.

But who made the original bad decision, and can any money be claimed back from them, or is it just one of those things because at that point it was all internal?

To put it simply, LittleRach, certain informal discussions took place involving a full and frank exchange of views out of which there arose a series of proposals, which on examination proved to indicate certain promising alterations to the junction, which, when pursued, lead to the realization that the alternative courses of action might, in fact, in certain circumstances, be susceptible of discreet modification, leading to a reappraisal of the original ideas and pointing the way to encouraging possibilities of compromise and cooperation, which, if bilaterally implemented with appropriate give and take on both sides might, if the climate were right, have a reasonable probability at the end of the day of leading, rightly or wrongly, to a mutually satisfactory resolution to traffic management.
It is characteristic of all council discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t so it wasn’t.
I hope this simplifies in a plain English way what has happened in this case  wink

Yes thanks, perfectly clear Sir Humphrey


Really called Janet (and still confused)

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#15 01.Dec.17 15:59:58

ridge walker
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

That all very good Tony so top marks from me,well done Rachel and Nola. This lunchtime i visited the Junction and entered the pub from the car park... a labyrinth of a away in to reach the bar to be met by a vision in blond who served me a Taddy Lager in exchange for £2-30p, they were hanging the christmas decorations and all the fellows on my right were happy to help to get things central and precise, it was nice and warm so i entered to main room and found a seat, its very nice with new carpets, tables and chairs, i chose the upholtstered bench under the window, for a chat, The walking sticks for sale with coins set into the handles @ £20 each were tempting but its now very and the outside wall render is sharp and neatly done, the inside pictures well chosen, i was not there for the beer but the Junction outside and found the window on the corner was covered with a blind and the floor was full of boxes tinsle and fairylights , i could have watched things from there but i enjoyed the company.

The crossroads was operating without any trouble, right turns with ease, through traffic no problem, the black strip in the centre lined up turning traffic nicely but i wanted to watch how double deck buses manage and a few bin wagons and white van man cutting the corners and a few jay walkers running off the pavements ignoring the crossing points with there tactile red flagstones and lowered curbs..... some crossed by dodging gaps in the traffic as the lined crossings were a few strides out of there way, the drivers were very good so it got my final thumbs up, the white paintwork was a bit much and yes the customers all say you can still see the arrows underneath the blanking out, a bit nit picking i suggest unless my observations are wrong, i would have no hesitation  to let Nola to use this junction with safety when leaving  Bethesda  but its shorter going up Dogford Road- same distance i would think.

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#16 01.Dec.17 16:28:07

ridge walker
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

I was talking to this chap near the bar, the xmas tree had just gone up in an alcove and i just mentioned its all gone up since i came in and at least 4 woman were working on the job, he point to the lady behind the bar who served me my drink, she's my daughter, now someone said the landlady was from the Pleasant and would take over the Junky when it was all finished, so was she the one, only 18 -25, i liked everyone there today, all very  well informed and wise, freindly and no work clothing or muddy boots.

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#17 01.Dec.17 16:38:37

sg
Administrator

Re: Dogford Road Junction

I imagine that was Charlotte who served you. Did she have a good local accent? And glasses ?


[citation needed]

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#18 01.Dec.17 16:46:52

Tony
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

sg wrote:

I imagine that was Charlotte who served you. Did she have a good local accent? And glasses ?

No good pub should be without them!!


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#19 01.Dec.17 16:52:29

Tony
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Is it my imagination or has the footpath as you approach from Royton been widened slightly ? It seems barely wide enough for two lanes of traffic now (the right turners and the one heading straight on to Summit)


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#20 01.Dec.17 17:52:10

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Tony wrote:

Is it my imagination or has the footpath as you approach from Royton been widened slightly ? It seems barely wide enough for two lanes of traffic now (the right turners and the one heading straight on to Summit)

It probably seems wider because they have trimmed the hedges right back along that stretch, making the pavement seem wider.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#21 01.Dec.17 19:31:32

sg
Administrator

Re: Dogford Road Junction

I thought they’d widened it too but it could be an illusion like tabby said


[citation needed]

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#22 01.Dec.17 20:11:34

LittleRach
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

I think something must have happened, because essentially now it should be exactly back to how it was.  But it’s still not working properly and I’m not sure why.

This tea time at about 5pm, traffic was queued back all the way from that junction, past the Railway junction.  And there still seem to be a lot of people now trying to do what the temporary arrows said, even though they clearly aren’t there any more.


Though we cannot make our sun stand still, yet we will make him run.

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#23 01.Dec.17 20:45:01

Tony
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

There is a wide raised kerb now outside the pub which I don’t remember from before.
As Rach says there are still some drivers trying the new way!!


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#24 02.Dec.17 09:50:57

sg
Administrator

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Tony wrote:

There is a wide raised kerb now outside the pub which I don’t remember from before.!!

I think you’re right.
So it makes it harder to get around any right-turning traffic.


[citation needed]

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#25 02.Dec.17 11:59:52

ridge walker
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Not sure about the glasses SG , i will return- i was told the pub gets very crowded at night and its standing room only, so why place a huge one armed bandit up against the wall of the passageway into the main room with a picture still on the wall, a women started to use it and completely blocked the way in by standing in front.  The Junction has no white centre line now either only the thick strip on black anti skid surfacing thats also on the approach to the traffic lights with the daft cycle box at the front.

I was not aware the crossings are pedestrian controled like the Railway, so all the lights stay on red while they can walk diagonally across the junction from the pub to the church,  dreadfull idea and never liked it, in Shaw there version in front of the Shay Wake has painted diagonal lines to each corner, you cant just stop all traffic at such busy cross roads its backs up vehicles in every direction- whats wrong with pedestrian crossing from side to side then repeating this to cross over again,err the right turners permitting pestrians are a menice on the roads,  they can wait without causing the pavement to back up for miles like vehicle have to do, yet their are people who dont give a damn about motorists  and the congestion it causes and only think of themselves or claim its for health and safety and get backed up by jumped up nobodys defending the system.   Give me strength.....

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#26 02.Dec.17 14:10:25

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Ridge, please may I defend the system?

I have to say that from a pedestrian's POV I really like the new crossing.
Unless you've ever got off the bus on Rochdale Road with bags of shopping and waited in the rain and wind to cross the road, you don't know how awful it is.
I, and most other people I speak to like the idea of crossing diagonally. Who wants to wait twice at the same junction just to cross over? It's only for a minute anyway, and then the traffic is flowing again.

The one armed bandit sounds like a bad idea. It must bring in lots of revenue for the pub that's all I can say.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#27 02.Dec.17 15:43:49

ridge walker
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

You may Tabby,its rare to see anyone using the new crossing points,  i have never seen anyone go diagonally from corner to corner only those who cross Rochdale Lane over to Rochdale Road in a streight line well away from the crossing point, its about the time your there as it changes all the time throughout the day,  the Railway is far worse but i can cope with that, its just a bad stretch of road as its not free flowing or calm all the way to Rochdale, I can take alternative routes and Sandy Lane is one of them, the route into Oldham via Broadway is delay after delay, so whats been done to make things better after all the expence- nothing,  there adding more delays not less and thats a success- whats the rush, with thinking like that were never going to see better travel and transport conditions, and segregating bus lanes and taxes from other traffic using the same road space is just tinkering.

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#28 02.Dec.17 16:45:39

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

I agree it's not as busy and well used as the one in Royton centre but at school coming home times when the children get off the school buses in the afternoon and morning I think it has got to be safer. We all know what  kids are like. They dodge the traffic and narrowly avoid being run over so if it saves even one child involved in an accident it must be a good thing.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#29 02.Dec.17 18:36:16

nola
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

The odd time I have tried to cross anywhere near that junction I've lost the will to live!  So I'm sure it will be appreciated by pedestrians


Really called Janet (and still confused)

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#30 03.Dec.17 17:28:02

LittleRach
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Tabbycat wrote:

Ridge, please may I defend the system?

I have to say that from a pedestrian's POV I really like the new crossing.
Unless you've ever got off the bus on Rochdale Road with bags of shopping and waited in the rain and wind to cross the road, you don't know how awful it is.
I, and most other people I speak to like the idea of crossing diagonally. Who wants to wait twice at the same junction just to cross over? It's only for a minute anyway, and then the traffic is flowing again.

The one armed bandit sounds like a bad idea. It must bring in lots of revenue for the pub that's all I can say.

I definitely agree for pedestrians.  It’s long needed a crossing there.

I always cross diagonally as well if I can, at the shay wake, and at the Railway in Royton (Although you have to run, or walk briskly to make that one!).


Though we cannot make our sun stand still, yet we will make him run.

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#31 04.Dec.17 01:56:16

sg
Administrator

Re: Dogford Road Junction

LittleRach wrote:

I always cross diagonally as well if I can, at the shay wake, and at the Railway in Royton (Although you have to run, or walk briskly to make that one!).

Nah you're being soft
I saw a school mum cross sooo casually there with 5 kids in tow. The kids lagged behind but she kept her head down and marched on knowing that the kids knew the drill. The pottered and plodded on and got the last of the little ankles on the footpath just as the juggernauts thundered past


[citation needed]

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#32 04.Dec.17 11:05:02

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

sg wrote:
LittleRach wrote:

I always cross diagonally as well if I can, at the shay wake, and at the Railway in Royton (Although you have to run, or walk briskly to make that one!).

Nah you're being soft
I saw a school mum cross sooo casually there with 5 kids in tow. The kids lagged behind but she kept her head down and marched on knowing that the kids knew the drill. The pottered and plodded on and got the last of the little ankles on the footpath just as the juggernauts thundered past

yikes  The trouble is, many drivers are impatient and don't want to wait a nano second longer than they have to to set off. What's the big rush? As for the mum with her children following, I could never bring myself to be as casual as that. I had to drag them by their hands. Their little feet wouldn't have touched the ground!


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#33 04.Dec.17 11:57:20

ridge walker
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Although i agree , hasn't anyone seen pedestrians press the crossing buttons, and dont wait for a green light and cross on red, there gone by the time its safe to cross and drivers sit there waiting for the phase to end for those vital seconds and minutes  for no reason, or people who just press the buttons with no intention to cross just to stop the traffic for fun, drivers may have been stopped at traffic lights umpteen times passing through Royton and many may be visitors who dont understand local conditions, on the trunk roads through traffic are prioritised against local traffic and not by OMBC who reduced its roads to single lanes when traffic was increasing so theres no opology for causing this congestion and would convert all roads to single lanes if they had the power to do so if it makes our crossing points safer on paper, i think it puts them in harms way in many cases, it may prevent the death toll by lower speeds but injuries and damage must have increased, as reported accidents are recorded for hot spots to become known it does not take long to discover where they are, Dogford Road Junction is one thats taken3 decades to be looked at and it still caused  complaints after completion, we gained something but it will not be enough to satisfy everyone or to justify the length of time it took, It makes no differance to the motorist as were still a pain to drive through to thousands of daily users who have no other option.

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#34 04.Dec.17 14:24:55

MikeS
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Perhaps we should all be like the cyclists and ignore the red lights devil
Am I right in thinking that in America pedestrians have to cross at designated crossings and must wait until the sign says to cross?

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#35 04.Dec.17 15:39:46

crackerbarrel
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Yes - otherwise you can be written up for jaywalking. I remember in the 60s going away to the Black Forest in Germany on a school trip & being told off, very sternly, by a German policeman for crossing the road, but not on a crossing, even though there wasn't a car to be seen anywhere.  big_smile


Happiness is a journey, not a destination.

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#36 04.Dec.17 17:56:16

Rebel
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

The main problem in Royton apart from too many vehicles is that the vast majority of people driving the said vehicles are idiots .  Not all  but I would say around 90 % .    Take these poleople out of the vehicle and they return to being normal and not idiotic . ..   Really this is a fact , I witness it every day at Shaw rd End/Shaw rd.


I was in the House when the house burned down !.

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#37 04.Dec.17 18:54:47

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Shaw Road end junction is full of idiots, Rebel, you are absolutely right. The main problem is traffic continuing to come through the lights when the are on red and leaving drivers stuck in the middle of the road, having to wait again for another phase of the lights.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#38 05.Dec.17 01:49:28

sg
Administrator

Re: Dogford Road Junction

Rebel wrote:

The main problem in Royton apart from too many vehicles is that the vast majority of people driving the said vehicles are idiots .  Not all  but I would say around 90 % .    Take these poleople out of the vehicle and they return to being normal and not idiotic . ..   Really this is a fact , I witness it every day at Shaw rd End/Shaw rd.

It's closer to 20% idiots isn't it?
But that's plenty.
Those turning left at T-junctions who approach the end of the road assuming there will be nothing there and they just swing out onto the main road. Do they WANT to crash?


[citation needed]

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#39 05.Dec.17 10:28:41

Rebel
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

sg wrote:
Rebel wrote:

The main problem in Royton apart from too many vehicles is that the vast majority of people driving the said vehicles are idiots .  Not all  but I would say around 90 % .    Take these poleople out of the vehicle and they return to being normal and not idiotic . ..   Really this is a fact , I witness it every day at Shaw rd End/Shaw rd.

It's closer to 20% idiots isn't it?
But that's plenty.
Those turning left at T-junctions who approach the end of the road assuming there will be nothing there and they just swing out onto the main road. Do they WANT to crash?

20%  100% of the time.   90%   20% of the time.  Rush hour .


I was in the House when the house burned down !.

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#40 05.Dec.17 10:30:10

Rebel
Member

Re: Dogford Road Junction

crackerbarrel wrote:

Yes - otherwise you can be written up for jaywalking. I remember in the 60s going away to the Black Forest in Germany on a school trip & being told off, very sternly, by a German policeman for crossing the road, but not on a crossing, even though there wasn't a car to be seen anywhere.  big_smile

Yes and  get fined for not carrying i d  ,washing your car on the street ,


I was in the House when the house burned down !.

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