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#1 05.Jul.18 18:25:34

Woody
Member

Library/ Town Hall

Overheard a conversation this morning in Royton that the Library was given to the people of Royton in some form of trust by Carnegie and Co to be used for the purpose it was built and granted a Library.

So it could be protected by a covenant from being turned into something else anyone know more ?


I would if I could but I can't,

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#2 05.Jul.18 20:46:58

exile
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

Old Carnegie was an American Millionaire, oil or railroads I think, and he founded libraries all over the world as he believed in education.

It will be a betrayal of his gift to use that building for anything else.


who is bigger Mr Bigger or Mr Biggers son ? the son he is a little Bigger

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#3 05.Jul.18 21:03:52

Tony
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

As a straw poll who still uses the library on a regular basis?
I used to go in quite often to look up something in the reference books or browse a medical book to see what I was dying from that week then maybe a book would catch my eye to take home. Now the internet serves the purpose reference wise and second hand books are a few pence on eBay.


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#4 05.Jul.18 21:45:39

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

I probably used to hand you the Black's Medical Encyclopaedia from under the counter, Tony. It was always being asked for.  big_smile  I don't tend to go in nowadays but I do borrow the ebooks on my laptop, if that counts?

I think most people nowadays go in the library to use the free computers TBH.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#5 05.Jul.18 22:40:19

Erin
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

I must admit I don't use the library these days, it's a shame because over the years I was a constant user. I buy lots of my paperback books from amazon these days and then pass over to the charity shops or our book stall at church.

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#6 05.Jul.18 23:06:10

crackerbarrel
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

I used to go in 2-3 times a week, but now I only go in very infrequently- usually to have a look if they have a cookery book I'm interested in before I make up my mind to buy. I tend to use my kindle for reading.


Happiness is a journey, not a destination.

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#7 05.Jul.18 23:54:55

Tony
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

Tabbycat wrote:

I probably used to hand you the Black's Medical Encyclopaedia from under the counter, Tony. It was always being asked for.  big_smile  I don't tend to go in nowadays but I do borrow the ebooks on my laptop, if that counts?

I think most people nowadays go in the library to use the free computers TBH.

I think you handed me another book from under the counter but it wasn't medical wink


War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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#8 06.Jul.18 08:18:57

ridge walker
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

What Woody overheard may be what many people would think about the library and how Carngie would have had conditions attached of covenants to its future use, somewhere there will be documents hidden away that no one in council service have ever read or seen, howmany times in recent years have these conditions been brought to their attention by the public who do read them and can be an authority on land ownership and that of its buildings and effectiveley stopped development.

Many library of this nature across the country have been closed in recent years because the councils lack the money to fund them, or in some cases handed over to vollunteers, i would think this explains how the 'deal' works when money is not available, their part of the barguin falls apart, new authorities are formed and new conditions apply, what was then and now changes everything and i think that battle to preserve them was lost decades ago simply because its too costly to maintain them, heat and staff...... this then questions the relocation into the Town Hall without any added conditions or protection like those with Carnegie libraries,  who funds the new structure other than someones oppinion that the council will take it on for ever onwards, it could happen again and taken back tomorrow or next year, its too expensive to run the service and priorities will pull the plug for the reasons stated, no good saying we are entitled to leisure centres and libraries, playing fields and parks and flower baskets in our town centres and a christmas tree or our parks given the same funding as before when we are short of money to pay for them, how many point at these things and say better spent on the NHS or social care as the new state of affairs where we can dispence with other things that have been with us all our lives to pay for new services we need today, just like the cut in police numbers, police station closures, firemen and school teachers, government changes all that.

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#9 06.Jul.18 09:34:59

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

Personally, I do not think there is such a condition.

Does anyone remember when we had a short lived LibDem council who wanted the library to be moved to the Assembly Hall and sell off the old library? In retrospect it  may have worked because it would have helped preserve the Assembly Hall for future generations but the Royton people formed a petition to leave the library where it was, and People Power made it so the council could not move the library.

While all this was going on I went on a mission to try to find such a document, anything really, that would have told me that the library had to stay where it was.
I found the old news item in the Oldham Chron from when it was opened, with photos of all the dignitaries posing outside, and I read it through to see if I'd missed anything. I went through as many of the old archived documents as I could find in the library but I found nothing.
But please, someone else try, there may be something somewhere.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#10 06.Jul.18 18:29:34

Woody
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

I find it difficult to understand how a Council in so much debt can consider any projects outside the day to day running things have been cut to the bone already,

The Library works perfectly well were it is leave it and maintain it,
There are a lot of other areas were savings could be made without moving Library's and leasing off buildings to make an income source to pay for bad management of the bygone years when the likes of former Council Leader John Battye rung the Government of the day who were trying to rehouse asylum seekers and said send them to Oldham who had more than enough to deal with Immigrants they had to settle,


I would if I could but I can't,

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#11 06.Jul.18 19:08:33

ridge walker
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

Well, i find it strange how things are remembered,  i wont ever question Tabby or Woody in what they say as each is correct in part, maybe its how its told, the two solutions to 2 seperate costly annual charges to maintain civic building have each attracted concerns, in the Lib Dem Days they discovered to losses when they read the books when gaining control, with labour the true facts had always been known and kept hidden from sitting councillors and the public, even today we are in the dark and deliberatly kept so, we either support our services and carry the costs or we close them, the difference being you pay for this, even borrowing the money or accepting the PFI's, the costs of which had always been known when the contracts were signed, just passed on down the line, the shock came when its wasnt far enough and came to roost sooner than expected, all justified  as what other option was available- The borough deserves better, they wont let it suffer were the most needy, thats where it started building what we cant afford like that loan for a new washing machine, you can have it in your home today, the costs come later but lets ignor that bit, you deserve it.

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#12 06.Jul.18 20:43:46

Tabbycat
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

I think it was in the 1990s, that it happened, Ridge. A LibDem councillor called Chris Hillier brought up the idea of closing the Carnegie library and selling it off, while moving the library to the Assembly Hall where it would have shared the space with some sort of drop in centre for single mums.

The Royton people were beside themselves and someone started a petition which got so many signatures that the decision was overturned.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#13 06.Jul.18 21:05:47

LittleRach
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

I confess that I don’t go as often as I used to.  But I’m not sure why.
Time I suppose.
Plus, i always have huge fines, and it’s embarrassing!!


Though we cannot make our sun stand still, yet we will make him run.

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#14 07.Jul.18 08:27:52

ridge walker
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

Good for you Tabby, Chris Hilyer was deputy leader, counciller for Heyside- as such he represented south ward and was on the district commitee  at our community meetings, at one of these he made a presentation on these proposals which was about the Assembly hall really as they had discovered the hidden costs of running it and that ofthe QE2 Hall at the Civic Centre, this 'loss' was far greater than Roytons and the feeling at the time and voiced was both were poorly run and both needed better management and more popular events that broke even on costs and possible make a profit, his presentation refered to the library and it limited scope to include the larger services of IT facilities and sales not just book borrowing, he  said the opportunity was there to expand the library  due to its limitation of space and relocate into the Hall, provide the extra services and keep it in council control but not as it was, yes other departments could have shared the space but the point was it would remain a public building, as i have said before no other councillor then or now has made such a strong, well researched statement at any public meeting in  my experiance, it was met by complete silence by the opposition, no reply was made and no group were present to challenge his suggestions or raise questions,  the rumours spread and LOLA was formed, even at that time prominant labour councillors were pursueing the 'better management route to save the Halls to stop the annual losses, but they were a minority in their own party, when it came to the final decision at full council they (labour) supported the sale of Royton Assembly Hall, to put the QE 2 on hold and only hold profitable events not known loss makers, which eventually turned it into a venue for council events like the Mayors Banquate,  remember they refused the  British Legion to hold its armistice parade there as they refused to pay the hire cost, in money terms it was pence per head extra, it became political, we lost Royton Hall because of this, an unwillingness to see reason, labour had been subsidising both halls for decades as they were valued, they were unable to make them pay or even break even, thats why they voted to sell it off..... saving the the greater loss maker when the regained control. now they decide to demolish it- unless Shaun Fielding as the new leader thinks different, this is how the cookie crumbles, its intrigue and dirty business running a council, i suggest readerstake a look at Oldhams central Library which has been renewed, then visit Chaddertons old library then take a short walk to its replacement in their leisure centre and do a comparrison check, or visit Failsworths revamped town hall that now adjoins their Carnegie library, the link to Roytons project without the selling off part to a joint partner.    Next meeting on the 16th July from 6-15pm,  ask the questions or as they say dont go and listen to the rumours.

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#15 16.Jul.18 22:17:18

ridge walker
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

No news on the redevelopment of the Town Hall at tonights meeting, it is hoped by the next meeting in October something will be known, as this concerns the library  no news of a partner being found to find another use for it is also unknown, this was the main agenda  item other than the police report and councillors update on things they have been doing or involved with, then it was the turn for public questions, on  one about parking that was causing obstruction it was made known by James that the suggestion to use the old Health Centre site as a temporary car park had been rejected by the council, it was turning  into a dissapointing night, item after item  went without a conclusion, i was hoping for something better to report as the rain arrived.

Worse was to come as a snippet reached my ears about an idea for Tandle Hill concerning the inscribed granit block known as the Norris memorial stone, James reported the cost of the work involved was being prepared but not yet received, it was for steps or a ramp or  a suitable surfaced footpath to provide a safer route to see it as its surrounded by trees now, many dont even know its there but that aside the lady feared she may slip and have a fall so it was about health and safety, access for the elderly and those less able,  listening beside her were two members of Royton History Society, its chairman and another who suggested the earlier work to clean the block and turn it around, for its anniversary ? however they all said the council did the work not them, as they will for any new footpath, i think we need more footpaths as we could all have a slip and break a leg, snow and ice and muddy conditions and uneven surfaces are all prone to accidents, we need handrails and carpets of chipped bark to fall on, a drainage system to divert water, styles at both ends to stop the mountain bikers using it, fancy a countrypark with so many risks, look where you put your feet, wear the right footwear and clothing all you need to know.

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#16 17.Jul.18 08:43:24

ridge walker
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

Just going through last nights meeting, i arrived after it started  at 6-10pm so they were already on item 4 on the agenda, it was well attended so after signing in i found a chair at the front without disturbing anyone, only a few other in mid rows were empty so i think many dont register they are attending, there are differences i noted, one being they provide minutes from the last meeting back on 4th June, a quick glance at those reveald tonight was revisiting issues from that time,  who did not attend and sent in apologies,  James had been unwell and GMP were absent, catching up and picking up  from there and trying to listen takes time to adjust.

On the policing updateand the crime figures that have increased the recent murder on Yorkshire Street, Oldham had taken its toll, present was the Inspector
Stewart Wilson and a PC now known as a NBO in this roll Lee Ingram, he began by saying following arrests of repeat offenders the figures will now reduce, some good news came from the Insp' that shift pattern changes now see's more officers are available as they change over, and they can now deal with local issues rather than supporting the area responce teams, he said they still have manning and funding cuts issues  but they are seeing far more drug related driving offences now in the hours of darkness, and appealed for witnesses to cars dealing with these on the street to pass that information on- no questions will be asked- just times and
places.

When it came to public questions, 2 had already been submitted and they were read out, mine were then accepted but as the first was under investigation it could not be heard, however my written list was handed to the case worker Linda Cain to record for a later reply without further comment, other questions from the floor followed from those behind me,  but in their defence the elected present did repeat whatever the difficulty they can be contacted direct and nothing would be overlooked or passed over, they will be followed up provided its refered to them first, so details were taken from those with concerns, after that who knows what can be done, let the process have a chance to work for you is the message, things take time before a result can be found, this is the disconnect i spoke off, they depend on the officers  responce to their memo's C/o Liz Fryman the district coordinator,  It is surprising how officers see these issues and how they respond and the reaction to it,  one case was costed at £50,000 to prune a line of trees and reinstatement of the road, mind boggling, you really should pay a visit Ha Ha.

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#17 18.Jul.18 22:58:24

Mags
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

I love the library, I go in often.They have had an influx of new large print books this year and the choice is great.
I love reading so can read two to three books a week.

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#18 19.Jul.18 11:20:45

ridge walker
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

Should be better than it is today Mags, we will have a new entrance at the back for improved access, were waiting for the final details, i'm sure it will be welcomed although we have concerns about the old one, we dont know if both will open together or not and be left empty, the money it will raise is essential but cant be a condition before work starts, wont be finished untill 2020 and the Carnegie will still be in use during this time.

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#19 19.Jul.18 11:42:17

Woody
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

In todays Oldham Times Councillor Howard Sykes said a freedom of information request had disclosed the cost of two Council projects cancelled,

Hotel Future  £418,000 had been spent before being abandoned in July 2017,


And after Marks & Spencer pulled out of the Princes Gate development at Mumps despite a £9million plus sweetener to fit out there new store and a rent free period of six months when they opened,
Princes Gate was supposed to deliver 700 jobs and £21 million a year to the economy Cllr Sykes said,

All grand schemes with no substance like Morrisons in Royton lots of grandstanding cost and waffle then nothing,

How can a Council in so much debt be allowed to roar on unchecked they must have some responsibility and duty to the overburdened Tax payers,


I would if I could but I can't,

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#20 19.Jul.18 11:52:41

exile
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

That’s all very true Woody, but just remind us all again who voted this council into office.   devil


who is bigger Mr Bigger or Mr Biggers son ? the son he is a little Bigger

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#21 19.Jul.18 13:22:09

Erin
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

exile wrote:

That’s all very true Woody, but just remind us all again who voted this council into office.   devil


That is a legitimate question Exile but because of our voting system we only really know how we ourselves chose to be in charge of our council.  If we want  a change the only way to go about it is to go to live in some leafy suburb. sad

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#22 19.Jul.18 17:57:17

Woody
Member

Re: Library/ Town Hall

exile wrote:

That’s all very true Woody, but just remind us all again who voted this council into office.   devil






This last couple of times with no credible opposition I voted for the best man/woman to do the job but one candidate don't make a Council its the hardliners that will not change that kill it,


I would if I could but I can't,

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