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Tabbycat

#1 08.Nov.18 18:48:03

The Nomad
Member

What a wonderful world we live in.

I've just read this online.

https://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news … ed-robbery

12 month conditional discharges DON'T work. The "old-fashioned" (some might say brutal) methods do. France recently reintroduced 2 years National Service. I think we are in dire need of the same as the parents of the feral creatures that prowl our streets now couldn't give a damn!

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#2 08.Nov.18 19:12:50

Tabbycat
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Boot camps are the way to go. Absolute scum IMO.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#3 08.Nov.18 19:15:26

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

The Nomad. wrote:

I've just read this online.
https://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news … ed-robbery
12 month conditional discharges DON'T work. The "old-fashioned" (some might say brutal) methods do. France recently reintroduced 2 years National Service. I think we are in dire need of the same as the parents of the feral creatures that prowl our streets now couldn't give a damn!

Sorry if I seem to harp on about China, a country that I feel extremely comfortable, safe and happy to live in (I abided by their laws and had no qualms with that. I never got into trouble with the authorities either, apart from slight misunderstandings, but they helped me out with that because I was trying my best to comply with their system), but this absolutely absurd incident in Oldham where a perpetrator brazenly walks up to a police vehicle and uses an axe!!!!
In China he would not be seeing tomorrows sunrise. I, on the other hand, would be walking safe streets (in Xiamen). If he had fled, once caught he would have received capital punishment and his family would have been charged for the execution bullet. NO passing on costs to the taxpayer (this is tantamount to rubbing salt in the wounds of the family or the family losing face).

I know China has a "bad record" for capital punishment results but has anybody ever looked at the situation from another angle. How safe is it to walk the streets in China compared to other countries and places like New York and London? How many stabbings in London in 2018?

Chat later. I'm going for a few beers in the dark alleyways and myriad of bars in downtown Xiamen. I WILL chat with you tomorrow.

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#4 08.Nov.18 19:21:47

Tabbycat
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

I've never been to China but from things I have learnt about it I don't want to go there.
It's not that long ago that they had the "dying rooms" for unwanted babies, mostly girl babies. And, as a passionate animal lover I couldn't live in a country that has such a terrible animal welfare record. At every turn I would come across some atrocity or other that would break my heart.
I don't agree with capital punishment but I do believe criminals should be properly punished for their crimes. I don't think capital punishment has a place in a civilised society.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#5 08.Nov.18 19:22:39

sg
Administrator

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Hmm, harsh punishments are well and good but then these 2 would be dead.
making-a-murderer-new-920x584.png

And these guys, all dead

birmingham-six.jpg?w968h681

And these guys

nintchdbpict000312620562.jpg?strip=all&w=960&quality=100

And they'd have killed Stefan

_44194313_stefanandmother203.jpg

And our Susan

may_2727105c.jpg

You get my point.
Let's not increase punishments until we first have a justice system that doesn't lock up innocent people.


[citation needed]

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#6 08.Nov.18 20:29:46

LittleRach
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

It can’t ever be right to kill another person.
There’s never any justification for it.


Though we cannot make our sun stand still, yet we will make him run.

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#7 08.Nov.18 20:35:42

Tabbycat
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

What right have we as human beings to decide whether a person is fit to live or die? Only God (Or any other higher being you believe in) can do that. And as SG says, all those innocent people would have been killed.
I wonder how many more innocent people went to the gallows ?


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#8 08.Nov.18 21:33:43

Barleycorn
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Tabbycat wrote:

What right have we as human beings to decide whether a person is fit to live or die? Only God (Or any other higher being you believe in) can do that. And as SG says, all those innocent people would have been killed.
I wonder how many more innocent people went to the gallows ?



Indeed - and many reports of China harvesting the organs of the executed.  Some suggest that the rate of execution is determined by the demand for organs...   hardly the basis for a justice system.

Sorry Nomad, but execution for smashing a window ( even Plods) is all wrong.


I'm no apologist for any criminal behaviour though - in fact, I would enforce community payback and make prison a harsher, more desolate place in comparison to current facilities. 

Essentially it would (when I'm king) be a short sharp shock, that would seriously put repeat offenders off a return visit.   

Porridge for breakfast, stews, mash to eat.  Fruit as a snack.  Water to drink.   No TV ( but BBC World News in the canteen 24/7). 

But they would be clean, safe and no brutality. 

Mealtimes, community payback work and a monitored exercise session aside, it will be in your cell.   

Lights on at 6am, off at 9pm.   Piped World Service Radio  in all cells from 6am until 10pm.  No visits.   No calls. 

You can't fight/obtain drugs/teach each other new crimes in a room, on your own.

But much, much shorter sentences, and working schemes for payback programmes where practical.  Because we spend too much on prison, in part because we put people away too often, for too long. 

The thugs who did the crime outlined above should be cleaning the streets with a handbrush for a few weeks.


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#9 08.Nov.18 21:55:39

sg
Administrator

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Fess up Nomad, you're just winding us up with this one wink

Interestingly, half of brexit voters want to bring back the death penalty. Nice company you're in there brexit voters yikes
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p … 56791.html


[citation needed]

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#10 08.Nov.18 22:13:12

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Tabbycat wrote:

I've never been to China but from things I have learnt about it I don't want to go there.
It's not that long ago that they had the "dying rooms" for unwanted babies, mostly girl babies. And, as a passionate animal lover I couldn't live in a country that has such a terrible animal welfare record. At every turn I would come across some atrocity or other that would break my heart.
I don't agree with capital punishment but I do believe criminals should be properly punished for their crimes. I don't think capital punishment has a place in a civilised society.

Tabby, you should never read a book by the cover. You say "learnt" or do you mean "you have been told something about China and you believe it"? Seeing is believing, at least what you see. What do you REALLY know and believe about what you are TOLD in our own "democratic" country? Things like "Thirty years later and then we will be told "the truth". Really!!!? Leaders of "Axis" countries are branded the scourge of the planet and yet Bush/Blair waltz about, free men, even to this day, even though they have never, ever proved their WMD waffle.

Conversely, you can also look into our ("Great" Britain) far from perfect country history (and you could go back eons to the days of barbarianism from our side) and look at recent history, with the likes of Jimmy Saville, Gary Glitter and the likes and then you really have to ask yourself, are we really a civilised country. You could argue that any way you want to twist it.

Another comment of yours: the "dying rooms" for unwanted babies, mostly girl babies.
"Isle of White!" Do you recall? "Catholic atrocities left, right, centre", and any other way that that faith could pervert its "direction".

My belief?
I have NONE of what are supposed to be the traditional beliefs. I know what is right. I know what is wrong. If you can accept me for the way I live my life, I can also accept you for your way. It makes life interesting rather than us all just being the same, same, same.

Hung, drawn and quartered and then your head impaled on a spike over the river. What's your opinion, Tabby? I always look at the whole picture and pull those up that don't. We don't look too civilised, do we?

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#11 08.Nov.18 22:24:17

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Little Rach. wrote:

It can’t ever be right to kill another person.
There’s never any justification for it.

I see your words. Now what do you propose as an alternative (as opposed to prison release after 5 minutes for being a good person?).

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#12 08.Nov.18 22:36:29

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Tabbycat. wrote:

I wonder how many more innocent people went to the gallows ?

What is the ratio between those that should have gone and the mistakes? Have you got any figures?

China is approximately 2 weeks from court to dispatched. America is about 15-25 years. Who's paying? UK is FOREVER! Definitely who's paying?

A 5 year period should be more than adequate for an expensive lawyer to find sufficient evidence to have you released. Failing that...…… Well, we all know.

Brits complain about everything. At the moment offenders get off scot free and we don't like it. On the other hand, when we get to the subject of dispensing of "things" that shouldn't exist on our planet, we all baulk. All I have to add is; I'm sure we've all had a granny and grandad.

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#13 08.Nov.18 22:52:16

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Barleycorn. wrote:

Some suggest"

Of course they do but hard facts are predominantly required otherwise its the ducking chair for one and all until the last man (person these days) remains.

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#14 09.Nov.18 09:39:58

sg
Administrator

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

The Nomad wrote:

A 5 year period should be more than adequate for an expensive lawyer to find sufficient evidence to have you released. Failing that...…… Well, we all know.

Watch Making a Murderer on Netflix.
The very best lawyers can't get innocents out of jail.


[citation needed]

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#15 09.Nov.18 10:06:50

Tabbycat
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

China is renowned for its poor human rights record and its terrible animal welfare record.

You ask where I get my information from. World news mostly, but it is common knowledge that as a country they are the probably worst in the world for the way they treat animals.

China is the biggest consumer of illegally poached ivory; taking wild animals from the sea and imprisoning them in tanks so they can charge people to see them, placing wild animals inside little toys and gadgets with just enough oxygen to last them a couple of days etc etc etc.

I won't labour the point about the dying rooms as I think it's history now, although not that long ago in my mind.
My country has a lot of faults, and often gets it wrong but I'm glad to live somewhere where we don't have the death penalty for breaking a window.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#16 09.Nov.18 10:58:36

Erin
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

We live in Britain and do not have any control over the practices of other countries.

Last edited by Erin (09.Nov.18 11:02:29)

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#17 09.Nov.18 20:43:35

LittleRach
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

The Nomad wrote:
Little Rach. wrote:

It can’t ever be right to kill another person.
There’s never any justification for it.

I see your words. Now what do you propose as an alternative (as opposed to prison release after 5 minutes for being a good person?).


I like Barleys suggestions.
I’m not saying that atrocious crimes should go unpunished, nor that the public shouldn’t be protected from the people who commit them.

But to go around killing people is barbaric


Though we cannot make our sun stand still, yet we will make him run.

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#18 10.Nov.18 17:53:26

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

sg wrote:

Fess up Nomad, you're just winding us up with this one.

Far from it, sg, but I get the very distinct impression that Barleycorn is with his "The thugs who did the crime outlined above should be cleaning the streets with a handbrush for a few weeks". It's 2018 now, not 1930. A brush and a shovel WILL NOT correct the behaviour of these feral creatures. This type of specimen is set in its ways! FACT! Just take a look at proven government statistics regarding reoffenders. They make for very sobering reading, especially the stat. of 64.5%: -

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u … ber_16.pdf

While I condone and agree with the majority of Barleys suggestions, "brush and shovel" is woefully wide of the mark.

Again, I will repeat, had the police been armed then the axe-wielders "death" (assuming we had armed authorities here) would have been as a result of carrying a deadly weapon and confronting a police officer/s (not just “breaking a window”, as you, defensively, on the offenders’ side, glibly put it, Barleycorn. Additionally, said policeman/woman, not knowing how far that person was prepared to go with the weapon, and the force used with it, would have being justified in using deadly force in order to, firstly, protect/defend themselves and, secondly, protect the public at large (it was 11:35am, in a busy town centre full of citizens including OAP’s and children).

As it was the police inside the vehicle were very fortuitous to have escaped any physical injury, but they were not to know that at the time of the attack. Any person carrying a weapon, of any sort, and then approaching people empowered to uphold the law deserves to get what comes their way. As I mentioned previously, in China he would not be seeing any more sunrises. In the USA, the same situation. And, coincidentally, the very same thing happened in Australia on Thursday.

So, his “death”, had it occurred here in the UK through police enforcement, would have been anything but “for breaking a window”. Furthermore, your choice of words (Barley) imply that you are siding with the perpetrator of the extremely serious offence committed (with a weapon) and “his rights”, something I hear uttered and regurgitated far too frequently in this country. NOT ONE WORD mentioned about the wellbeing of the police that protect us and our streets/country. Brits grumble all the time about rising crime (amongst a myriad of other things) and yet cry foul when “somebody’s rights” are being violated. I would wager my very last dollar that the very same people would be up in arms at the drop of a hat if it was someone that they knew or was near and dear to them and would be the very first ones to criticise the UK system and insist on amendments to the law/s, all notion of the offender’s “rights” being thrown out of the window. Or, in other words, wanting to “close the stable door after the horse has bolted” (I think that’s how it’s expressed. Isn’t it?). Indeed, too little, too late!

And yet, a few days later, I still haven’t seen any alternative suggestions (apart from Barleys) here as to how incidents, shall we say, and feral creatures should be handled, in a nicey, nicey way, where the punishment fits the crime, without resorting to barbarianism, as you perceive it, but, conversely, the offenders “rights” are hunky-dory and he/she is very happy and satisfied with the outcome of his/her punishment meted down by the courts and then a nice, comfortable, cushy time in “prison” for “a few months”, receiving three square meals a day, playing video games, watching telly, having a few games of pool, working out in a lovely gym, loafing about on their comfy Slumberland mattress and waiting for their “drone-drop” fix and latest smartphone being delivered by same said vehicle, all at my expense.

If you’ve erred in life, it can, at times, be understandable and a rap on the knuckles shouldn’t be frowned upon. If, on the other hand, you have a total disregard for anything and everything apart from your own selfish interests and blatantly and flagrantly oppose law and order and those that are here to uphold that, as in this case, then, in my book, they have no place here and I will stand by that comment, thinking and belief until the cows come home.

For those who prefer the "nicey, nicey" approach to the scourge of our society, as opposed to what certain individuals perceive as my Draconian stance, then I would be prepared to shift slightly, but only on a day when I have got out of bed on the right side. The alternative: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Onoa5Rfokk

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#19 10.Nov.18 18:05:44

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

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#20 10.Nov.18 18:06:47

Barleycorn
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

My short sharp shock idea if prison isn't nicey nicey IMO.  I suspect the prison demographic would hate it, in fact ( deterrent??).

I didn't mention 'the rights' of the criminal, BTW.  Not once - straw man alert!!

Finally, the 'same thing' didn't happen in Australia... that was a brutal, murderous terrorist... Not a robbery.

When the state takes life by design, life is cheap (see USA, Mexico, China, Brazil etc etc)


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#21 10.Nov.18 18:23:55

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

I would like to ask, putting yourselves in the victims shoes, would you, in your dying breath have wished or granted forgiveness on these two or would you have been thinking that they should have been dispensed with the first time round? Furthermore, what would your nearest and dearest be thinking and wishing for?

These two (see below link), in this particular case, at least by the Vietnamese, are seen as ambassadors (I use that description here in the very loosest of meaning) of our nation: -

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 … goc-nguyen

These sick, sadistic and perverted creatures tarnished the reputation of our country. They were permitted to do so by our woefully inadequate system! Should we still be nice to them and grant them "their rights"?

What about the story earlier this week where a pensioners (98 year old who fought for this country) home was invaded and robbed but, not content with that, they then beat him senseless! Is a smack on the wrists sufficient or does anybody else have any other suggestions?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7677199/p … ld-london/

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#22 10.Nov.18 18:30:27

Tabbycat
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Whoever said we should be nicey nice to criminals? No one here, as fa as I can see.
As for suitable punishments for teenage yobs? See my post no. 2.


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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#23 10.Nov.18 18:38:26

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Barleycorn. wrote:

Finally, the 'same thing' didn't happen in Australia... that was a brutal, murderous terrorist... Not a robbery.

In Oldham it was a robbery with deadly WEAPONS (not just one. Even a lump-hammer is classed as a deadly weapon, depending on the situation), and a weapon that was actually used against our constabulary, during which time they did not know how that situation would evolve and the events/consequences that COULD have unfolded. That is how brazen thugs and oafs are these days because they know there is no deterrent. As said, if the guardians of our safety, freedom, lands and streets were armed I very much doubt "Mr. Lumberjack" would be grinding his axe the day after and I, for one, would not be grieving.

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#24 10.Nov.18 19:09:53

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Tabbycat. wrote:

I don't agree with capital punishment but I do believe criminals should be properly punished for their crimes. I don't think capital punishment has a place in a civilised society.

The society in the UK is far from civilised and is getting less so day-by-day. Criminals and offenders, and the likes of that thereof that are coming-up "through the ranks" are not afraid of doing what they want to do without a second thought for anybody else (that includes OAP's and children, certainly if a gang of twelve (12) have absolutely no qualms whatsover to strut around a town centre in broad daylight brandishing deadly weapons regardless of police presence). Indeed, it would seem they see that as more of a buzz, threatening the keepers of the peace.

I've posted government facts and figures and other cases elsewhere on this thread. Please take the time to read them. I'm a staunch protagonist of corporal punishment, especially regarding the cases I have posted elsewhere. If there is "no shadow of a doubt" then it's game over as far as I'm concerned. Likewise for the 12 that carried out "their work" in Oldham, the axe-wielder in particular. Sayonara!

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#25 10.Nov.18 19:51:25

Woody
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

One thing that would kill this discussion dead is a Democratic Vote, I feel if it was ever offered you may be surprised at the strength of feeling,

When Tony Blair was Prime Minister he said you will never get a vote while I am Prime Minister,

He failed to say it would or should be our democratic right and choice,

But a vote will never be offered has no Politition will want to live with the fact that the people may vote yes to bring back Capital Punishment,

With advances in forensic detection and DNA it would be difficult to convict the wrong person,

But its more important to have a deterrent the knife crime in London is out of control something has got to be done to deter and make people think before acting,

Last edited by Woody (10.Nov.18 19:54:47)


I would if I could but I can't,

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#26 11.Nov.18 08:55:37

ridge walker
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

If anyone reads the court case reports on sentencies handed out by magistrates, something i campaigned for after endless stories of local criminal acts in the newspapers never reported what happened afterwards, were the caught and arrested and what was the punishment, we knew only a small percentage ever sent to court back then, now we know 90% are never investigated.  In most cases of those who do go to court and get community service, curfews,and fines,  most do not comply and have to be rearrested, case after case warrants had to be issued and the same penalty issued, repeat offences, 2 strikes and your out have no effect, they are back on the streets, sending them to the crown court often sends them to a young offenders institute for sickening attacks, crime and punishment to most people isnt working and Nomad just gives examples, i think thats a majority view taking it in the round and SG's responce which is compassionate to the offender, their has to be a detterrant to these crimes, or nothing will change, how can they be rehabilitated and ever live a meaningful life if they reaffend constantly, what they say and what happens in effect does not tally with the public,  even after dozen of chances nothing changes- its a life of crime and a career choice, no home, no job, no hope, all that can be provided can it ?

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#27 11.Nov.18 12:41:41

The Nomad
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

Tabbycat. wrote:

Whoever said we should be nicey nice to criminals? No one here, as fa as I can see.
As for suitable punishments for teenage yobs? See my post no. 2.

Sorry Tabbycat! My most sincere apologies!
I was hot under the collar when I was online yesterday. It makes my blood boil when repulsive creatures, such as those referred to in this thread, and others equally likeminded, do as they please and yet certain folks seemingly stand by their side and preach for their rights. Unfortunately you got caught in my crosshairs. Whoops! cry

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#28 11.Nov.18 13:38:32

Tabbycat
Member

Re: What a wonderful world we live in.

No problem, the Nomad smile


Once you've read a dictionary everything else is just a remix

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